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[QUOTE]blah blah blah[/QUOTE] to reply to ShadowSD.
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[QUOTE="ShadowSD:458264"]PatMeebles said:[QUOTE]I'm sorry, reactionary is not a far right symptom. It's a non partisan symptom.[/QUOTE] Not what I learned in school. Junior Year World Civ class the political spectrum was radical - liberal - moderate - conservative - reactionary; I can still see it on the blackboard. [QUOTE]And we don't call Iranians anti-monarchy because that wouldn't illustrate what they are when it comes to current affairs. "A group of anti-monarchists has resumed nuclear testing" doesn't really ring any bells, as opposed to "A group of theocratic despots are trying to pave the way for the 12th imam, with the nuclear destruction of America as part of the plan." However, they are still anti-monarchs, just like Soviets were still anti-private property, anti-fiscal freedom, and pro-collectivist even after the ideology was twisted.[/QUOTE] Right, and despite that, we still identify Iran by the reality, not the idealogy. What makes communism any different? PatMeebles said:[QUOTE]Facism, by it's very definition and historical context, is pro-private property and corporation,[/QUOTE] But fascist states are usually dominated by state owned businesses, that's hardly pro-private property. How many major private corporations do you know from fascist states? Fascists exert their control over society to make it as profitable for them as possible while still being able to maintain power. Whatever the slogan, the average person is inevitably fucked. You want me to believe that pro-private and anti-private has real meaning in a society with no privacy, and no possessions or rights that cannot be overruled by the state? PatMeebles said:[QUOTE]And no, Stalin did not believe in Marx like it was originally intended. But LENIN did, and he was still prone to the same reactionary massacres that you claim are only the result of fascism.[/QUOTE] You're still not getting my point, which is that Lenin only rose to power on Marxist ideals. He did nothing to realize them once in power, proven by the fact that the USSR was an oppressive dictatorship under him for many years before Stalin took power. The USSR never realized communism, not under Lenin, not under anyone; why must I argue that communism failed for the country's entire history? PatMeebles said:[QUOTE]ShadowSD said:[QUOTE]also often involves pandering to the political climate to cement their position[/QUOTE] Hello John Kerry[/QUOTE] I've criticized him for this myself, I don't see why you bring this up. PatMeebles said:[QUOTE]ShadowSD[QUOTE]For us to validate them as leftist glosses over this failure[/QUOTE] Actually, no it doesn't. By pointing these things out as leftist, we know that the failure of the Soviet Union was caused by the failure that is ingrained in leftist policy. By calling Soviets fascist, you group them with the people who believe in extreme corporatism and private property. If anything, you're trying to gloss over the fact that evil despots can be progressive. [/QUOTE] Not at all, I said that idealogy can start anything, so the idealogy is IRRELEVANT in fascism, the laws that go into effect and how they're enforced is what defines a goverment. So any idealogy, even a progressive idealogy, can be harnessed by a despot to seize power - but once they have power, they turn into the same authoritarian oppressor regardless of the political nature of the slogans that make the people get out of bed everyday. So bottom line, any idealogy being discussed in the abstract can lead to something terrible, but that's no reason to fear ideaology or debate because they're not the difference maker; it's the laws that are the real barrier between us and fascism. [/QUOTE]
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